No doubt you’ve noticed. Lots of the baddies in American movies are Brits.
And if it’s passed you by, think of the villains you’ve seen in American movies – the best ones were British, weren’t they? The Matrix Reloaded, Mission Impossible, The Bourne Films, Spiderman 2, Catwoman. Oceans 12 and 13, and who could be more evil than Anthony Hopkins as Dr Hannibal Lecter? Then there are the baddies in Mel Gibson’s films, but let’s not bother going there. Thing is, cast a Brit as the evil-doer and you raise your odds of having a blockbuster hit.
So I’m wondering, what is it that gives British actors the edge as villains in ‘merican movies?
I just watched an oldie – Wall Street – and there’s a line in it where Gecko comments on some British Lord who’s visiting NYC. He says, ‘Like all Brits, he thinks he was born with a better pot to piss in.’ So I’d hazard a guess that arrogance and aloofness are key. And to build my case, someone who once employed me here commented later that he was relieved to find I was willing to ‘muck in’. ‘Why did he think I wouldn’t?’, I wondered. So I’d wager that a key trait associated with Brits is unwillingness to join in achieving a common goal.
By: Trev Grant
And what is it exactly about us Brits that exudes our baddy aura? Is it just our accent or our British visage, posture, eye contact, clothing, dental work or something? Or is it stuff in our speech patterns, turn taking styles, how we structure our thoughts etc. that makes us seem unhelpful and aloof. I think differing US/UK styles of politeness are playing a large role. We’d rather appear standoffish than intrude.
And one last point about this. I don’t think Brits give a hoot. Cast us in baddy roles and we find it pretty amusing. But perhaps I’m wrong about that, so let me ask: fellow Brits, does the frequent casting of Brits as evil-doers offend you, or is it water of a duck’s back? (And if it’s the latter, might that also signal arrogance and aloofness somehow?)
I think it’s the coldness thing. We make good baddies because we’re perceived as emotionless (which is a key baddy quality).
I can’t say I’ve been offended by it.
(Best Brit baddy of course is Alan Rickman in the first Die Hard)
I think it’s the tone.
I know many wonderful, warm Brits, I do.
But I also know many who when disagreed with sort of do something in their faces and in their voices (no matter how civil the words that come out are) which makes you feel about an inch high.
And it translates online too… I recently had quite an argument with a Brit – to any other Brit reading it he didn’t seem the bad guy but I was offended and responded so and thus, I got told off.
Dunno, culture is a mine-field, it truly is
but on to why are Brits cast as the bad-guys…
Personally I think it is because they were – throughout history a lot of very bad Brits did a lot of very bad things right across the world – which I am sorry, I am not trying to cause offense, which basically many of today’s Brits don’t acknowledge at all or appreciate or recognize. In fact, it has nowt to do with them.
But um, why not? Are we not the product of our ancestary? A wee look at history over the last 500 years will point to many a wrong-doing and all of it was done because of an idea, an ingrained assumption of both “being right” and “being more intelligent” simply out of the birthright of being British, why now, 50-100-300-500 years on should the Brits be forgiven just because we are in today not yesterday. How can we ever know that those things won’t be done again?
Well… okay, this is probably sounding horrid which is not my intention, so I’ll stop here but those are my two pence 🙂 on why it makes sense in movies to make the antagonist a Brit.
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Karenne Sylvester, Andy Hockley, Richard Whiteside, Michelle Worgan, BELTfree and others. BELTfree said: via @vickihollett Why Brits are baddies […]
Absolutely stunned by the naive racism of Karenne’s comment. Actually shaken by it. And this started off as an interesting blog posting. Well well well.
Actually I think Karenne has a point with the historical angle, though I’m not sure it works from a Hollywood perspective.
Historical wrongs do tend to set people up as baddies (note also the protrayal of Germans, or Russians, and the current slew of indeterminate Middle Eastern baddies – never Israelis of course – but non-specific Arabs. There’s even a Lethal Weapon film with baddy South Africans)
And because of this, I think, the perceived “tone” can rub people up the wrong way. Because the tone can be associated with the stereotype, which in turn is influenced by history. The mock-German “Ve haff vays of making you talk” menace, is another example. I think this projection of “tone” is very much a problem of intercultural communication.
However, I don’t think this plays much into Hollywood, as I think US Americans don’t really perceive this historical evil in the same way that other nations rightfully do. An English accent in the US tends to open doors rather than closing them.
Coming back to my own previous comment, I think “coldness” plays into the German and Russian image too, but I’m not sure why it doesn’t cross over to, say, Chinese or Japanese baddies. Again two groups of people who are stereotypically “emotionless”, but rarely portrayed as baddies
I’m sorry Guila, you have me completely at a loss… please explain why you think this is a racist comment which was most definitely not meant to be.
I agree with Andy that the historical aspect Karenne mentions probably doesn’t apply in the US in the same way as in other countries, although there may well be something in a replay of history with the good, just American throwing out the evil Brit – and I’m not thinking just about Mel Gibson either.
I agree that it’s mostly the aloofness and tone which is perceived as arrogant and sneering that makes Brits such good villains. As a Brit myself I find it amusing and also something of a compliment as the best villains need to have a certain level of sophistication and intelligence to be worthy enemies and maybe there is some jealousy on the American side for our perceived style that makes us a more satisfying enemy to defeat than other nationalities.
I really enjoy Rupert Everett in Shrek.
As I understand it at least some of the cause is that American actors wanting to be stars deliberatly avoid planning the bad guy, it’s seen as a bad career move.
Still shaken a bit by “Guilia’s” comment so have came on back to tackle the main point I had been trying to make – which is on how an antagonist is chosen for movies (or plays) and it is regardless of race and yet connected.
Basically in a 120 minute movie, you simply have a very short space of time in order to portray characters and these characters’ histories – the back story – this is done to get the audience to connect emotionally and to understand who is who and who it is they should be rooting for.
Cleverer, perhaps non Hollywood movies, :), may well take their time to allow characters to evolve throughout the story or provide a twist towards the end… some movies will show that the villian is not himself because of his innate evilness but because of things that happened to him in his life… but most of the time, movies need to spend as little possible time in communicating who is the good guy and the bad guy. Or the good girl.
Therefore cultural generalisations and stereotypes come into play. And a lot.
If the character is a ‘stupid’ criminal, the Director/Script writer will look for someone we easily associate with stupid criminality and we get this information about this character out of our popular human experience (history, stories we’ve read throughout our lives, what’s in the popular press, current-long-lasting news). Think of any movie where the side-kick is stupid, think of his nationality and in particular his educational level.
If the criminal is one on a mission to save the world – think of his mannerisms and his educational level? Now think of several options for his nationality – what do we know about that person’s cultural background and history?
If the criminal is one with a large developed community of fellow family members, what cultures does he come from? Why do we pick these? (And I have three in mind: one is European, one Asian and one South American) -why does our mind go there – not because of racism but because in those three cultures they have histories of family-oriented criminality.
In the case of the intelligent mastermind criminal, why… um, yes… the accent gets us everytime 🙂 but actually the films from this particular country usually choose a frenchman to play that role. Again, a generalism based on that culture’s historical relationship (1300-late1400s) with that country.
I could go on – who are the terrorists in movies today? Who were they in the 70s?
Who are the gang-rapists in American films?
Who are the seriel killers?
We all are entertained by movies but it is our histories that help us to “understand” who is who – if the criminal was a bubbly blond from Sweden we wouldn’t believe the story.
I hope this was useful, it was rather much, but… I’m a film buff and a massive history buff to say the very least.
Oh yes Andy! I hadn’t thought of the ‘emotionless’ aspect of our baddyhood. We’re icy cold – no signs of empathy for our victims – no flickers of remorse – and even when we get our come uppance we tend to play it haughtily cool. ‘Emotionless’ is a really core feature of British villainy.
Giulia, I applaud your desire to speak out about racism, but I think you must have misunderstood Karenne’s post entirely here. Karenne, I’m so sorry it’s taken me nearly a day to respond. I can only conclude Guilia must have misread something here and thank you for all these great observations. Yes, stereotypes help the movie makers tell the story.
You also raise a really interesting question re how far different groups and cultures feel responsible for the atrocities of their ancestors. We talked about how far we share culpability now once before (https://www.merican.vickihollett.com/?p=2473 ) and thanks for drawing this connection to the past here. You reminded me of a TV program that I think started off in the UK and has since moved to the US called ‘Who do you think you are?’ Using genealogy resources, celebrities trace back through their ancestral family trees and occasionally it raises questions like: When you discover that one of your ancestors was involved in the Salem witch trials, how would you feel about learning they were an accuser as opposed to a victim? Would it matter to you or not, and why? I think for some people it’s a big issue and for others it’s as you say: ‘nowt to do with me’.
Now re Hollywood, of course there seems to be more license to play around with history than we’d expect in British films. I’ve noticed that with other entertainments here too – in fact it probably merits another blog post.
Shaun – loved that take that baddy roles are a poor career move for American actors. Robert de Niro didn’t do badly of course, but I think mafia types might be the exception that proves the rule. Then I wondered about Vincent Price – but I gather he was American but put on a British accent! Ha!
And I loved your take on it being a compliment supercatmuses. So it’s not just water of a duck’s back – we take delight in it. Long may the British baddies thrive, eh?
Isn’t it partly because it’s a ‘safe’ target? Casting a ‘Brit’ (Let’s get this straight – it means white, upper-class and home counties English as far as Hollywood is concerned) is not likely to upset anyone politically. As far as stereotypes go it is one producers can get away with… due to the historical and cultural reasons already pointed out.
I hope that I might be forgiven for the sins of my ancestors, though. And it might be worth remembering that the English working classes also suffered at the hands of the English capitalists, warmongers and aristocracy. I wonder why all the good people below deck in ‘Titanic’ were Irish, when half the victims were third class passengers boarding in my home town of Southampton.
http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html
I’d definitely second the accent (cause Brits do have an accent 🙂 :)) It comes across as haughty or snobby to many Americans. It’s still a couple levels below French though.
My favorite story of a Brit was told to me by a friend of mine from London. There was some famous old journalist whose name I can’t remember that did a lot of work abroad. In an interview he described going for a walk with a cup of tea and being approached by a bunch of soldiers because he was in a restricted area. In response to the question of what to do in this situation, he replied along the lines of “My dear boy, simply speak English and keep and doing what you’re doing. In the end, they will let you carry on because deep down, they know you’re better than them.”
It’s an attitude I have seen a lot in schools I’ve worked at, mainly among the older generation. Brits 30 an under don’t seem to have it as much. With some older British colleagues I’ve often even noticed an unwillingness to engage with non-Brits and outright refusals to learn the language rather than simply lack of effort.
Perhaps it’s this haughtiness or the perception that Brits see themselves as above others and even above the law outside Britain that puts them in the role of baddies?
I think the history thing is probably right too. We generally put baddies in films we are historically enemies with and Britain was one a long time ago although that fact is largely forgotten today.
On the other hand, as others have stated, their are no negative stereotypes generally held against Brits in the US as far as I can see. Before moving abroad I know I didn’t have any negative preconceptions about Brits and to be honest, I never even noticed that Brits are often baddies in films.
Very interesting topic 🙂
I think you’re drifting into stereotyping there a little Nick (and I speak as a Brit who is significantly older than 30!)
I figured you would comment so I made sure to use lots of downplaying modifiers so as not to appear too absolutist (which I definitely don’t want to appear as here) 🙂
Other than that, you’ll have to take this issue up with the Brits I’ve worked with I guess. Besides, I still think the whole stereotyping negativity thing is too overdone these days. You know me 🙂
You older than 30 Andy? Hard to believe. 🙂
Many thanks to you, Darren and Nick for these lovely insights.
You’re right, of course, Darren – we’re talking about white, upper-class and home counties villains here – other varieties don’t seem to feature in this stereotype.
So interesting that you say that accent is key, Nick. Brits are supposed to be the ones that place and evaluate people based on how they speak. (Think Henry Higgins.) But you are saying that’s happening here in the US too, and based on my more much limited experience, I’d agree.
And I think you’re right that an English accent is a plus here too. I’d like to add a qualifying ‘generally’, ‘often’ or ‘mostly’ though, because I’ve encountered some interesting instances where it’s a hindrance.
Re what might make Brits a ‘safe’ target: is it because there’s an easily recognized stereotype here – cold, aloof, emotionless, arrogant, unwilling to muck in (and lots of historical precedent to hook into, as Karenne mentioned). Or is it because Americans expect/know that we won’t be offended or kick up a fuss (or might even feel amused or oddly flattered as supercatmuses points out). Presumably the former?
And thanks for that Titanic article link, Darren – with class AND ethnicity both featuring large in those stats. Of course both breakdowns had to be subjective in some ways, but it ties in with what’s been a learning curve for me. I think something very fundamental in learning to speak ‘merican (for this Brit at least) is trying to learn to switch from thinking in terms of class to thinking in terms of ethnicity.
I had that too, Vicki (thinking in terms of ethnicity rather than class). I remember my (American) partner asking me what a friend of mine’s surname was, and even though I’d known him two years and we were pretty close, I had no idea. As time wore on I realised that your surname is one of teh first things you get asked in the US (and it’s rarely even asked at all in the UK). We “place” people based on accent (in many ways), in the US people “place” people based on ethnic origin (and what easier way of doing that than asking for a surname)
Nick, sorry that last comment took a while to show up. For some daft reason, the normally efficient border guard control (Askimet) classified it as spam. Dear dear – can’t have that!
And re the tone of your comments, please keep ’em coming. I love ’em.
The strange thing is that many of Brit actors are being baddies in non-Brit roles. Something about suiting Shakespearean acting??
[…] Angelsachsen mit Büchern werfen Why Brits are baddies yuck and yuk Americans are half as efficient in discrimination as […]
Oh good point Alex. In older American movies British actors often played Nazis and Commies.
Andy mentioned Alan Rickman who played a German in Die Hard and I think Jeremy Irons played his brother, so the tradition lasted into 1980s and 90s.
Maybe they just want a foreigner to be the villain and the largest English speaking community in America will be the Brits.
Just had fun reading my way into Keith Richard’s “Life”. Chapter 1 contains this great story where he makes the American cops look totally foolish:
In the cap’s pockets there’s hash, Tuinals, some coke. I greet the police with a flourish of the cap and throw pills and hash into the bushes. “Hello, Officer” (flourish). “Oh! Have I broken some local law? Pray forgive me. I’m English. Was I driving on the wrong side of the road?” And you’ve already got them on the back foot.
You’ve got to hear Johnny Depp read this on Audible, http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=sr_1_12?asin=B0048G19IE&qid=1288770969&sr=1-12
🙂 Anne
I think it definately is racism, both against the Brit (usually English) and for the American. They wouldn’t get away with it portraying blacks like that, but snooty Englishmen are fair game to Americans. As for historical (& current) wrong doing, which country out of the UK & the US has invaded the most countries and caused the most deaths over the last 200 years? Clue – it’s not the UK.
I’ve just received this link to an interesting article about British accents in Fantasy movies: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17554816. Thanks Nadine!
The truth is that we are just more credible as rulers of the mass of lesser mortals. Brits (particularly the English) just naturally have “it” – at least, Americans seem to think so (bless their little cotton socks). ‘Scuse me, gotta dash, got an empire to build and minions to oppress (and then finish the ironing)
Ha! Apologies for not replying sooner. Love your take on this.