My first teaching job was in Algeria. (For more on my first lesson, see here) It was a fantastic experience, but not without its hassles. I was an unveiled female in her twenties and when I did my shopping in the local market, I generally came back with a couple of bags of groceries and a dozen guys following me. They’d be calling things out to try to attract my attention and it wasn’t a very pleasant experience.
I was reminded of this when my daughter took me to Marrakesh last year. It was a wonderful holiday but my daughter is young and beautiful. She proved difficult to ignore so a stroll through the souk could be a bit trying.
One hot, dusty day we ducked into a shop. I was tired, feeling pestered and and bit irritable. The owner offered tea and made ready to engage in some haggling about a bag my daughter was interested in. I’d had some experience of Algerian hospitality and haggling and realised a refusal was – well, not quite right. But nevertheless I declined both offers. The shop keeper’s response was to patiently try to explain the customs to me and I felt a bit ashamed of myself.
Because haggling can be a fun rewarding game of course, if you’re in the mood and willing to engage. I wonder if it’s one that men are socialised to play more than women in the UK and US. (See here for an article that indicates it might impact on salaries.) So there may be gender differences and there are cultural differences, of course.
Haggling is essentially a conversational routine that’s built around a disagreement. I think something is worth X and you think it’s worth Y. Geoffrey Leech reckoned that politeness dictates that we:
‘Minimize the expression of disagreement between self and other; maximize the expression of agreement between self and other.’
But there are two ways to look at disagreements. Yep, they can drive us apart, but they can also draw us together. It’s possible that through the process of argument and a bit of argey bargey, we can sometimes get to understand one another better and achieve a greater closeness.
And that can lead to a few culture clashes. At the risk of sweeping generalization, in Germany people may appreciate a long, frank exchange of views that enables them to become more informed of the issues. So a German team might want to thrash things out in greater detail than a French team, say, who might feel that agreeing to disagree is a more attractive solution.
Similarly, in Israel, disagreeing bluntly may build closeness and trust. The fact that one person can say disagreeable things to another can also signal solidarity – it indicates they think they are both the same kind of people and who want the same kind of things.
We know there’s tons of cultural variation in how people handle disagreements. In Brazil, a passionate argument may demonstrate healthy enthusiasm for an idea. In Singapore, emotional displays may be seen as a sign of weakness and a lack of control. In Japan, people may prefer to ask a string of questions rather than say they disagree.
But neverthless, on a hot, dusty day, haggling may be a conversational routine that much of the world would rather avoid.
“‘Minimize the expression of disagreement between self and other; maximize the expression of agreement between self and other.’ ”
In some cultures, this attitude could be viewed as hypocrisy, whereas expressing directly and truly your disagreement can be viewed as frankness, inspiring respect.
In Europe we have a specific attitude towards money too : each thing has a price, with a precise label, so haggling may seem kind of weird or, for that matter, impolite.
Because we are in contact with foreign people on a daily basis we are aware of those different interpretations of all the events of social life, but this is not so obvious for everyone.
“In Japan, people may prefer to ask a string of questions rather than say they disagree.”
Hmm, it’s a bit difficult.. Well, we COULD do that but…. I’m not sure…
I don’t know if this is that different from the British, or at least what I was brought up to believe was polite. Maybe I’ve been here too long, or maybe that’s why I’ve survived so long ; P
I remember, many years ago before it became the city it is today, my then-girlfriend / now-wife and I stopped over in Dubai and went off to have fun in the gold souk. I’m not sure if we did it right, but we went pretty hard and got a good deal.
I’ve haggled in various spots across Asia, from India to Indonesia, and I either feel like I’m being ripped off, or I am being a cultural imperialist, or both.. I like a level playing field in negotiation, so my favourite haggle is at a British car boot sale. If both participants share knowledge of the value of money and objects, and the structure of discourse, they can really get stuck in.
Thank you both so much for your comments. Alice, yeah, what’s seen as good manners in one place can be construed as hypocrisy in another. Somehow we have to step back to see it and (here comes another sweeping generalization) I think more Europeans may be privileged in some ways because of their opportunities to travel and wide contacts.
Darren, I bow to your way better understanding of Japanese. Asking challenging questions is certainly a strategy we use in English when we disagree too, so I can see how differences could be minimal.
A curious thing – in lots of ways I felt more at home living in Japan than the US, and I think it might have been about matches in politeness styles – two predominantly negative politeness cultures.
I’d like to try writing a blog post on Japanese and disagreements one day, not because I’ll have any idea of what I’m talking about, but because there’s such a lot of interesting stuff around on things like restraint in expressing personal opinions in the literature. Indirectness is often mentioned and I keep wondering exactly what ‘sounding indirect’ means. Conversely Americans have a reputation for speaking directly, but I keep noticing them speaking indirectly.
I’m not one to go in for the “Yank Bashing” that some Europeans enjoy (some of my best friends etc etc). But when I first came to Japan my colleagues were mostly American and Japanese. And as you say, I found it easier to get along with the Japanese… Americans tended to be too direct, confrontational.. dare I say, logical? Americans have that very refreshing way of asking ‘why?’ all the time, which should be a positive quality, but makes life difficult in a place like Japan. I guess if you come from an old place like the UK or Japan, you can be satisfied with the answer ‘because we’ve been doing it like that for hundreds of years’. That doesn’t cut it with the Americans, though.
Horrible stereotyping and generalisation alert! Apologies….
Oh Darren, “the love of the new vs the old”. I’m gonna tuck this gem of an idea away because I think you might have inspired another posting here on my learning so speak ‘merican journey. Thank you!
I worked for a while in Japan in a Dutch Village theme park, employed with a group of other internationals to perform shows for the visitors amonst the windmils and Tulips..
We all stayed in the same hotel a short walk offsite and each evening someone one of the organisers would come to the hotel and attach a running order for the next day to the hotel notice board.
Each morning we would gather onsite at 9am where an organiser would stand and read out the running order for the day (the one we had read the previous evening) and then we would all disperse.
There was a Dutch one-man band amongst the performers who always received his first slot of the day at 14.30.
After a week he stood up when the organiser arrived at the hotel and directly and clearly stated that he had no intention of coming to the morning meeting simply to hear what he already knew.
The organiser (Japanese) listened and left.
For the next three weeks the one-man band had 9am slots programmed.
The site was divided by a canal/river and they had constructed a replica Dutch sailing ship to allow people to cross. On one side in a distant corner was “Event Square” where performances took place and on the other side was the replica Dutch Village, shops, Dutch Cheese and Tulip Girls.
The main entrance was on event square side and the coaches would arrive, the people would enter and go straight to the galleon , over to the village , shop, return and leave.
Which left us performing in event square to a crowd of three bored waitresses and our Interpreter.
One day we went to the interpreter and explained the dynamics of the visitors movement and suggested that our performance would be much more useful if we performed in front of the galleon where crowds waited in between the crossings.
We spoke about it every night for a week trying to persuada her of the rationality of our suggestion.
One evening she entered the hotel smiling and announced – tomorrow you can perform in front of the galleon.
It was a great show, 400 people all laughing , applauding and then off to spend their yen in the shops.
we felt we had proved our point.
An organiser appeared as we were packing up.
He looked at us and said “Ok now?”
And then he lead us back to an empty event square for the rest of our 6 week contract.
Ooops, sorry – that was a bit long!
It was absolutely delightful, Chris. Can’t thank you enough for your contributions.
After living in Asia and South America I was most disappointed coming here (Germany) and not having anywhere to strike a fun bargain and exchange of “desires”…
I do love a good haggle… and very much delight in the experience of the to and fro, much more than the actual purchasing and where do prices come from, really – why should they be fixed..?
I mean, honestly a product could cost 50c to make and yet sold for €2 or €20 depending on things like “brand awareness” market fluctuations, location, climate … why this flattening – which is in itself arbitrary – and not the flexibility of clever words, tea and smiles???
I get this, I s’pose from my Dad who’s really brilliant at the whole hagglin’ thing – he has endless stories of the bargains he’s made along the way of life: even in Europe and America where he had been outrageous enough to ignore cultural norms in the pursuit of a good price.
🙂 viva le souk
p.s. I just loved this:
Similarly, in Israel, disagreeing bluntly may build closeness and trust. The fact that one person can say disagreeable things to another can also signal solidarity – it indicates they think they are both the same kind of people and who want the same kind of things.
I just realised that without having stepped in Israel that I should have been Jewish!!! I love people who disagree with me as I honestly find it more honest than those who always agree!!! How fun – I enjoy your posts so much Vicki even if I don’t always comment, you often give me something to think about!
K
I’d like to defend my adopted homeland, but I am afraid to say Chris’ story has a ring of truth to it. It may be that there were factors mere performers were not made party to, and that there were actually very good reasons for this seemingly disadvantageous way of organising the theme park. But it is also very possible that, in order to compromise, a typically Japanese solution was reached which made everybody equally uncomfortable. You could also point out that the Dutchman in the story ran true to form, demonstrating with one act the reasons for the simultaneous under/over achievement of the Dutch national football team over the years.
I love the story though, Chris. Those kind of things exasperate some ‘foreigners’ but pffft, as long as you get paid, right?